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Post by ATB Staff on May 2, 2017 4:47:48 GMT -8
We're just going to put this out there:
Would it really be a turn-off in a classic MUD environment for moves to not mean anything? We're seriously thinking of disabling movement as a thing entirely, and making food/drink more of a craft that players can use to get buffs. At the very least, we think that movement replenishment needs to be sped up.
Why change moves? Moves are a game-stopper. When you have to sit and 'sleep' for X number of ticks to be able to replenish moves it becomes easy to say "Hey, there's something else I can do, like watch TV" and then the player interest is interrupted or even lost.
Why note change moves? Because it's traditional MUD coding. Some say it becomes a tactic to use when there's PvP.
Thoughts?
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Garen
Beta Testers
Posts: 38 
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Post by Garen on May 2, 2017 12:44:22 GMT -8
I wouldn't mind seeing moves go....I also agree strongly that food/drink should go from a necessity to a bonus commodity that can be traded.
As for moves themselves, I think the concept can be re-skinned ...
Maybe change it to a more generic 'energy' pool that characters use for special moves, weaving, things like that. You can also have combat itself take from energy, so the tactical side of it can stay. That way fleeing, energy drains, whatever can still factor in while regular movement and exploring isn't completely gimped.
MUDs are really the only kind of MMO left I can think of that limits how much you can walk around, so I really don't know how many would actually miss their presence.
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Post by whisky on Dec 11, 2017 13:31:47 GMT -8
I always found move points an odd concept. Stopping people playing seems like a bad idea. Food and drink irked me too. Running out of food/water, you end up sleeping for 10 minutes to get back to full health. While sleeping you can't look at your skills, various other commands don't work unless you are awake. You miss the 'tick' and that's another 70 seconds of your MUD play time evaporating..
It's an exercise in frustration.
If I may pile on a bit more here, city gates closing and not letting players in or out because it is MUD night time. Shops aren't buying or selling because they are closed at MUD night time... So again I wait, overburdened, at the shop for it to open to sell my loot, or for the guard to let me through so I can hand in a quest...
What do these things add to the enjoyment of the game?
If the answer is nothing, I say remove them. Or re-purpose them.
For me, these are outdated concepts:
Tick regeneration
Shops/zones closing at night
Food / water / movepoint management
Solutions:
Real time regeneration
Remove night/day cycles? Or keep shops and zones open 24/7
Remove micro-management of food/water/move, or turn them into buffs or other uses as per Garen's suggestion
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Post by ATB Staff on Dec 12, 2017 6:41:46 GMT -8
Tend to agree regarding food/water/move points micro-management. As the concept of this game is to be playable with very few coded "stops" so that it meets the needs of today's gamer, this is something that I'd like to see turned into buffs.
Regarding shops closing, that's something to take into consideration and it will be mulled over this week. The zone closing (ie, city gates closing and locking at night) are part of a larger strategy that also plays into pvp and alignment. This only affects large cities and not towns. I believe that at this time there is a trigger in place for a player to open or close a gate, and another to call the gate open if needed?
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Garen
Beta Testers
Posts: 38
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Post by Garen on Dec 12, 2017 18:27:22 GMT -8
Shops closing and gates locking are a tricky issue. I tend to set my shops to being open at rational times - usually 6am to 7pm, or something like that. It's one of those weird grey areas of verisimilitude, because while we all like worlds to feel real, it's sometimes hard to find where you delineate between what you do for realism's sake and for a game's sake. Gates being closed and stuff doesn't really bother me, since you can call for them to open and it lends itself to PvP strategy and the feeling of 'us vs. them' for the Light and the Shadow.
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Post by ATB Staff on Dec 13, 2017 9:29:53 GMT -8
I'm going over a patch for move regen that is event based, coincidentally written and published by Whisky over at the TBA code forums. I hope to have it in by the weekend so we can test it.
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Post by whisky on Dec 13, 2017 13:42:35 GMT -8
Having ways to get through/around the gates - bribery, climbing walls, etc would be great. Discovering the rootdoor entrance was helpful and a nice touch of exploration/reward. Didn't realize there was a way to call out for opening gates, perfect. (although I can't figure out how to use it haha) Shop opening times is tied in with night/day. As you say it would take away some of the immersion if all shops were permanently open. Given that the city gates are part of a bigger picture and would rely on night/day then I agree they should be left alone. I like that there are reasons for the systems, not just because they shipped with the stock code  |
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Post by ATB Staff on Dec 14, 2017 4:51:37 GMT -8
The gate calling, opening and closing were one of the first things I puzzled out because I really wanted it - can you imagine a fist of trollocs coming in the dark of night to raid Braem or Hai Caemlyn and the gate guards saying "Oh, come on in, you slavering beasts of destruction for the Dark One..." Let them maraud through small towns and hamlets, but if they want to take a city, they'll need to do something about the pesky gates guarding the entrances.
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Post by aramus on Dec 15, 2017 7:45:34 GMT -8
I've seen a couple of WoT MUDs that just went with an "Endurance" stat. It was a pool of regenerating points used for movement, skill/action based combat abilities (bash, kick), auto-firing offensive/defensive skills (parry, dodge, riposte), and weaves.
Heavier armors had modifiers that made endurance-using activities cost more end than lighter armors.
That let the item designers not have to micro-manage class-usage of items quite as much, as a channeler could wear full plate armor, but they'd run out of End pretty quickly.
And it gave Crafted armor another stat to bonus/alter for the really advanced crafters. I.e. Master Crafter can make plate armor that allows for more/better movement, slight decrease in End modifier, etc.
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Post by ATB Staff on Dec 15, 2017 7:52:02 GMT -8
As mentioned in the game, I'm intrigued by that. I always appreciate things where the player can make more choices (with consequences) instead of having the game/coders make the choice for the player. I wonder if Whisky would see this as a fun project to take on, at first look? This sounds like something right up his alley... And he has a way of taking this code base and doing interesting things! I'm going to bring this to his attention just in case. It sounds like a solid suggestion that could allow a lot of versatility.
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Post by whisky on Dec 17, 2017 19:56:33 GMT -8
This is a big sweeping change that will dramatically alter the feel of the game. Fantastic! If you haven't fully ironed out the mechanics in the background yet, then this is a good time to start. It should include things like - will we be keeping the d20 mechanics? Do we need six main attributes? (Str, Dex, Wis, Int, Cha, Con). Armor class, how does that work? These kinds of things. Reason being, if you make big code changes while the world is small - less things builders will have to fix if anything goes wrong. Imagine having to update 30,000 mobs because you changed the way hitroll or damageroll is used. Poor Garen. The sleepless nights!.. Consolidating Mana and Move into a single Endurance pool makes good sense to me. Warriors and Rogues currently have a redundant Mana pool that doesn't get touched. And removes those curious situations were a Channeler might be 'too exhausted' to move one room north, but can summon an almighty fireball down from the heavens  Safest way to make a change like this would be to create two brand new stats, endurance and endurance_max for example. Then step through various actions (weaving, combat, movement) and update them to use the new stat. Leave mana and movement untouched until you are happy endurance is working correctly. Is that enough to go on? |
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Post by ATB Staff on Dec 18, 2017 8:00:59 GMT -8
Honestly, outside my wheelhouse at this time, as you know. Thinking about it, I'd say that the d20 system works well and should be kept, as should the main attributes. Keeping it simple and as true to original form is good when it comes to a mud; there's a certain level of expectation that someone has as they log in that it is a multi-user dungeon with its origins in table top D&D type gaming. Even 5th edition AD&D hasn't messed with the core, right? As I've puzzled this through I hit on the same thing you did - create an endurance stat and go from there, pooling mana and movement into it as one. It seems the simplest approach to start. You're right, this is a big change but it allows for the playability of a mud to meet this decade, I think. The whole concept of moves/mana/etc. has its charm from the 1980s but today's gamer doesn't run into it in other games. Can you imagine playing Assassin's Creed and running out of moves? You'd turn off the console and walk away, and get involved in something else while you wait, and that's not what any game designer wants. This is most likely a big enough change that it could, in theory, be quite the alteration for inclusion in a future rollout of the TBA code base. It's one of those things that I'd be happy to see someone take on over at TBA, and say they heard about the idea at a little, in-beta mud *coughsuggestioncough*. Is this something that we should toss over to TBA as a whole, see if Krell or Parnassus or anyone (other than you, because I don't want to presume on your time or interest) wants to weigh in on? |
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Post by whisky on Dec 18, 2017 11:23:11 GMT -8
Honestly, outside my wheelhouse at this time, as you know. Thinking about it, I'd say that the d20 system works well and should be kept, as should the main attributes. Keeping it simple and as true to original form is good when it comes to a mud; there's a certain level of expectation that someone has as they log in that it is a multi-user dungeon with its origins in table top D&D type gaming. Even 5th edition AD&D hasn't messed with the core, right? As I've puzzled this through I hit on the same thing you did - create an endurance stat and go from there, pooling mana and movement into it as one. It seems the simplest approach to start. You're right, this is a big change but it allows for the playability of a mud to meet this decade, I think. The whole concept of moves/mana/etc. has its charm from the 1980s but today's gamer doesn't run into it in other games. Can you imagine playing Assassin's Creed and running out of moves? You'd turn off the console and walk away, and get involved in something else while you wait, and that's not what any game designer wants. This is most likely a big enough change that it could, in theory, be quite the alteration for inclusion in a future rollout of the TBA code base. It's one of those things that I'd be happy to see someone take on over at TBA, and say they heard about the idea at a little, in-beta mud *coughsuggestioncough*. Is this something that we should toss over to TBA as a whole, see if Krell or Parnassus or anyone (other than you, because I don't want to presume on your time or interest) wants to weigh in on? Ok leave it with me. I can do another patch file against stock tbamud + regen if that suits. |
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Post by ATB Staff on Dec 18, 2017 12:18:15 GMT -8
I wouldn't object to that kind of development and improvement, of course! No rush - and if this works, I think it's going to cause quite a stir at TBA. Thank you - I'm really excited, and I imagine that when Aramus sees this he's going to do a happy dance in his chair. |
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Post by whisky on Dec 18, 2017 12:23:07 GMT -8
I wouldn't object to that kind of development and improvement, of course! No rush - and if this works, I think it's going to cause quite a stir at TBA. Thank you - I'm really excited, and I imagine that when Aramus sees this he's going to do a happy dance in his chair. And throw in the guildmaster stuff at the same time? |
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